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[問題] Archon Thalsian與Archon Darinius的辯證探討 [複製鏈接]

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發表於 2011-5-4 01:53:58 |顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 keppekinosha 於 2011-5-4 13:01 編輯

  Thalsian與Darinius這兩位,在古泰文特諸Archon中,在Origins與2裡各自被描述為非常重要的領導者。他們的事蹟乍看之下沒有什麼交集,但經過比對後卻顯得疑點重重。我先將幾份資料中對兩人的敘述摘錄下來。

  首先是關於Thalsian的部分,Thalsian在Origins的資料被提及,主要是說明他與Blood Magic的關係。在官方指南(PRIMA Official Game Strategy)與遊戲內Codex中都有同樣的敘述(但也有一點點不同的地方)。
Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men.

The Archon Thalsian, first of the magisters who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an empire.

In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with Imperial power.

Thalsian also created the magister ruling class that has existed to this day, his own pupils forming the noble houses that have ruled over Tevinter for millennia.

Mages of the Imperial Chantry today claim it is more likely that blood magic was learned from the elves of Arlathan, but truly there is no direct evidence of either stance being true.

  綠色的部分在遊戲中是以大寫來表示,但無論何者,以現在對於泰文特的情報來看,這都是指「廣義」上的帝國(即支配疆域廣大,但不一定實行君主制或不自稱帝國的國家)。

  而藍色則是只有官方指南才有,再加上紅色部分則是本次所要探討的有爭議的地方。

  接下來看關於Darinius在2之中的敘述(一篇關於法族﹝Magister﹞的文獻,先別管文獻作者是誰;有趣的是Thalsian的部分在2完全被鬼隱了)。
Before it became the Imperium, Tevinter was ruled by a dynasty of kings. And long before the Chantry there was a Circle of Magi: the society of mages in each city. The titles our modern Circles use—enchanter, senior enchanter, first enchanter—all originated here. But above the first enchanter, the Circles of Tevinter had another office: magister.

The magisters formed a council of the most powerful mages in the kingdom. They convened in Minrathous and held dominion over all magic in the land. When Darinius seized the throne in -1195 Ancient, the Court of the Magisters became the royal court, and "magister" was the only title of nobility recognized in Tevinter.

The Imperium today is a magocracy. Political power is solely in the hands of the magisters, who come only from the ranks of the Circle. Every young mage aspires to be a magister’s apprentice because it’s the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves.

  標上紅字的部分是特別要注意的部分(其實我自己已經翻完這篇,但恐翻得不好,所以就不招搖了);另外我再補上最後一份資料,是官方提供關於2的時間線部分中的兩段最早的敘述。
1195 Ancient Times: By magic and steel, Darinius seized the great city of Minrathous and declared himself Archon – both king and high enchanter. Those who supported him became Magisters, mage-lords of the realm. At Darinius’ command, they conquered all neighboring lands and the rise of the Tevinter Imperium in Thedas began.

981 Ancient Times: The hostility that festered between the Tevinter Imperium and the elves finally turned into open war. Armies of the Imperium surrounded the fabled elven city of Arlathan in a siege that lasted six long years… until the Magisters resorted to a horrifying blood ritual that sank Arlathan into the earth, destroying it utterly. The conquest of the elven kingdom was complete: All those who did not perish with their city were enslaved, their spirit crushed and their ancient culture destroyed forever.

  根據這敘述,我再補上Origins提供的時間線:「1 TE: The Tevinter Imperium is created with the crowning of the first Archon.」。

  首先總地來看,1195 Ancient(即 1 TE)就是Tevinter Imperium建立,即首位Archon的加冕。然後根據2的年表與法族文獻來看,首位Archon應該就是Darinius沒錯;且這個Archon在此來看是結合王權與法師地位的最高領導。

  然而以法族文獻為主,輔以2的時間線來看,在此之前(Tevinter Imperium建立,Archon稱號出現以前)法族(Magister)這個階級就已經出現,而且具有一定的社會地位(根據參考國家的歷史來看,很可能是諮議機構-早期的羅馬元老院)。

  那麼再回頭來看Thalsian,在Origins的文獻中提到他是「first of the magisters」(漢化翻譯作「第一位魔導師(法族)」),而最後卻是「Imperial power」(注意Imperial是字首大寫);顯然產生了矛盾,這是第一點。

  如果要考慮官方指南補充的部分(藍字的部分),則又更加有衝突。根據該敘述,他「created the magister ruling class」,那麼他應該是Imperial以前的人,但他的頭銜「Archon Thalsian」又是怎麼一回事?同時也與先前的「Imperial power」衝突。

  至於Imperial Chantry聲稱的那部分,關於Thalsian學得的魔法並非龍神而是精靈的部分則又更加混亂(在Wikia還提到是Thalsian去發動的,老實說我沒查到出典,請知道的朋友告訴我,否則我只能無視這段)。

  最後我個人的意見是,從2的資料回頭推敲,Archon Thalsian較可能是Imperial之後的繼任者。第一個理由是前面敘述的文獻與年表的佐證;第二個理由則是Darinius的出頭是因為「magic and steel」,卻不是「blood magic」。magic與blood magic的差別之大,不需要我特別指出(而這也不是金石非石這種語言詭辯邏輯);我認為Darinius是找到了獨特的鋼材與魔法(或是發明了鋼材鍛造與魔法知識發現);如果在這之前「blood magic」就已經存在,那麼「magic and steel」實在也不怎麼樣,不是嗎?



  補充一下我提到Thalsian攻打精靈是在Mage (Wikia)這篇的「History」項目第一段。

遊戲本身並沒有功利目的,遊戲過程的本身就是遊戲的目的。by剩餘能量理論

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版主服務勛章 翻譯小組

發表於 2011-5-4 10:52:17 |顯示全部樓層
看了維基之後 ,雖然說是人編或許有錯,不過還是不太懂時間先後順序。

    Not all in chronological order.

    Archon Thalsian — First of the magisters. He claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, and to have learned blood magic from him. The power he gained from blood magic allowed him to establish an empire under his rule.
    Archon Darinius — The first historically noted Archon, who united the human tribes under the Tevinter Imperium. Sealed a covenant between Tevinter and the ancient dwarven empire, traveling underground to meet with their leader Endrin Stonehammer. He was the first owner of the Imperium Rings, which were given to him by the dwarves.

Darinius是歷史文件上有記載且承認的第一個Archon,但是他的資料上沒提到有magisters這個詞。

或許這個詞應該是由Thalsian創造或是自稱,畢竟他是第一個magisters

雖然名字Thalisan在前,不過維基註不是全照歷史順序。

但是照描述,Darinius應該是在Thalsian之前沒錯。

個人里解釋這樣。

點評

keppekinosha  而在http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Mage中的History第一段提到Thalisan出兵攻打精靈;但我不知道出典,如果有的話就可以底定了。  發表於 2011-5-4 12:09:15
keppekinosha  Darinius的Codex有提到他將Magister的地位與議政機關提升,但確實沒有明顯提到他自己是不是Magister...  發表於 2011-5-4 12:07:40
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發表於 2011-5-4 13:16:59 |顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 keppekinosha 於 2011-5-4 13:19 編輯

  我剛剛在「PRIMA Official Game Strategy」中找到了關於Archon Darinius的記述,是在「Famous People in Ferelden」(佛瑞登知名人物,嗯...怎麼會放在這裡?)
Archon Darinius: The premier magister lord of the Tevinter Dynasty, founded the Imperium in -1195 Ancient.

  所以Darinius是一名Magister Lord,而Archon是眾Magister之首;那麼關於這段敘述:
The Archon Thalsian, first of the magisters who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an empire.

  是否可以解釋成:Thalsian是由於在所有Magister之中,最早(第一位)學得Blood Magic(因為Old Gods所傳授)的Magister,並且進一步將該知識傳授給其他人,而得以進一步加冕成為Archon?

點評

冬風  這個語意就比上面清楚了。  發表於 2011-5-4 16:26:36
遊戲本身並沒有功利目的,遊戲過程的本身就是遊戲的目的。by剩餘能量理論

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